Satsang with Robert----
Introduction
Huang Po, the Sixth Patriarch stated, "The only truth is that there is no truth. Beware even of this truth." Robert too urges students not to believe what he says, for why should we? He asks instead that we experiment on ourselves to find truth.
Any truth stated in words, conceived in ideas, or perceived by the senses is what you make of it. This kind of truth lies in the relative world and depends on education, family upbringing and the state of current scientific knowledge. It changes moment by moment and is really opinion. However, the possibility of an absolute truth, beyond human knowing, beyond scientific or religious understanding, has always been a part of many spiritual traditions.
The teachings are not important. For Robert there are 1100 ways to peel a potato. Teachings and techniques are the surgical thorns to remove the embedded thorns of suffering. We should not be concerned about the surgical thorn's incidental qualities, whether it is from a cactus or a rose bush, whether it is a one-inch or a two-inch thorn, or whether it has a round or triangular point.
Just so, we should not compare Krishnamurti's teaching to Nisargadatta's to Robert's. Each is a skillful remover of suffering. If you search for invariant truths in their teachings, actions or techniques, you risk becoming paralyzed by a hundred impaling barbs. These teachings are conveyed by flapping lips, are empty, and have nothing to do with the absolute. Their primary intent is to silence the mind so That is revealed by itself. When you do find a skilled spiritual surgeon, just stick around and listen. Let the words pass through. Do not be caught by them or by the teacher, unless, of course, that is what happens.
This talk was transcribed with great effort, word for word, without the slightest deviation, in honor of my teacher, who even in 1990 was quite difficult to understand.
Robert: Let me ask you a question. Where do you think you were prior to consciousness? What do you think you were? Who can tell me? (silence) Before you came into this body, before you became conscious, what were you?
A: You mean prior to individual consciousness as opposed to consciousness itself?
R: Both.
A: Is there any prior to consciousness?
R: Yes there is.
A: The Witness? The witnessing I perceive in dreams sometimes?
R: Not really.
A: Prior to consciousness, would that be consciousness at rest--no content?
R: Exactly. What were you prior to it?
A: There is no prior.
R: Are you sure?
A: Yes.
R: Any more bright answers? (laughter)
A: There can't be! It's absurd!
R: Why can't there be, why just dismiss it entirely?
A: Because consciousness is fundamental. Consciousness is all. It's all that is. What can be prior to all that is?
R: Tell me.
A: Potential?
R: Any more bright answers? (laughter)
A2: Anything that would be said would only be a concept and would be in phenomenality. It would miss the point entirely.
R: That is the answer. You got it. As long as you can describe it, it is not that. It is a mystery. It is beyond description. The finite can never comprehend the infinite. As long as you can describe it, you can talk about it--it is not that. This is something you should always remember.
The answer is silence. That is the correct answer. You are space. Now you appear to be the image superimposed on space. Why do we identify with the image? Prior to consciousness, we were not the space, really, nor the image. The reason I say you were not the space is because we can talk about it. You have a concept of space. As long as you have a concept of space, it is not that.
The only way you can find out is by not saying anything. Catch yourself between thoughts. If you have a thought, and the thought stops, before your next thought enters, that is it. The space between thoughts is what we are talking about. Again, as long as you can talk about it, describe it, argue about it, say it is this or it is that, you are wrong. Not really wrong, just the wrong track. Because if you are wrong, then something is right. Nothing is right, so there is nothing wrong. It goes beyond dualistic concepts.
That is why I tell you to spend so much time alone, when you don't watch television, you don't listen to the phone ring and you can cut yourself off from the radio. Just sit and be yourself. Then you will experience pure being. As long as you search, you will never find it. Ask what you are searching for. You are searching for something you already are. That is why you can never find it. If you are not that, then you would need to search. Since you are already that, searching becomes fruitless.
What is that? That is the space between your atoms. Every sentient thing is composed of trillions of atoms, but the space in between is consciousness. We use the word 'consciousness' for want of a better word.
We have to function in the world. So don't walk around trying to be smart. Instead what we do is function in the world as ourselves. Be yourself. If you are yourself, then you're safe. In other words, you're not trying to be anything. Just be yourself.
What does it mean to be yourself? To live spontaneously. Most of us live from the past, as you know, and we worry about what we are going to do in the future. If you learn to forget about the past and the future, you are safe. If you live spontaneously you would have no have time to think, and that is when you become the witness. Thoughts are simply about the past and the future. True? You want to act in the moment. When you are acting in the moment you can not think because you are acting. Therefore, your thoughts are only on what you're doing and that stops other thoughts. Then you go on to the next thing. You should not try to analyze the thing at all. Everything will work out whether it's good or bad, whether you're making something out of it or not, whether it's in your favor or against you. All that has got to go.
Once you lift yourself up, nothing can touch you again. The world no longer has any power over you. The world only has power over you when you identify yourself as a body. If you identify yourself as a body, then the world becomes real, objects become real, situations become real, the universe becomes real, God becomes real, everything becomes real and you live in duality. One day you suffer, the next day you're happy. Happiness leads to suffering, suffering leads to happiness. Of course, this is human unhappiness I'm talking about, human suffering. As soon as you learn to go beyond that, and again that
happens by living spontaneously, all suffering ceases. After all, for who is the suffering? For the one who identifies with the thoughts.
Suppose somebody gets fired from their job. They start to worry about that and this leads to worrying about the future, because when you worry about the past, getting fired, you're going to start worrying and thinking, "How will I pay my rent next month, how will I buy my food?," and your mind loves that. It starts feeding you more. Pretty soon you start imagining yourself evicted from your house. Then you see yourself in the welfare lines, and you see yourself becoming a homeless person, and sure enough you do, because that's what you believe. That's where your mind is leading you. As long as you feel you know the mind, it becomes very, very powerful. Then you can see that thoughts are things, for your thoughts will materialize in this world of effects with that which you believe is real. Subsequently, if you start worrying about your job, being terminated, and you start worrying about food, and you start worrying about evictions and all that stuff, you're really saying to yourself mentally, "That's what I want to happen," and you always get what you want. You had better watch yourself.
The secret is not to change your thoughts, but to get rid of your thoughts completely. We're not trying to change negative thoughts to positive thoughts, for our positive thoughts lead to negative thoughts and our negative thoughts lead to positive thoughts. That's duality. We're trying to transcend the whole ball of wax, to go beyond, and that's what happens when you live spontaneously. It happens by itself.
Living spontaneously is a meditation. Do not concern yourself with the fruits of your efforts. Everything will take care of itself, of itself. What I mean by that is, if you're in a job for 24 years, do not concern yourself if you get terminated or you don't. That's not the point. The point is who do you think you are? Do you believe that you're that frail human being that's been terminated or that frail person who has marital problems, or that frail person who doesn't know if he's going to die or live? Forget about all these things, go beyond them. Identify with the absolute awareness. Identify with the total reality which we really are.
You do not identify with those things by affirming them. You identify with those things by what? By silence. You see the difference? There are many schools that tell you, change the negative into a positive, but that is based on the world of relativity. You'll have to experience both, and there will be no end to it. When there's silence in the mind, you get rid of all concepts, of all desires, of all needs, of all wants, of all hurts. You become oblivious to everything. Then the real Self begins to take over--which is you; you'll automatically do or gravitate to the place where you have to be. It will all happen by itself, but don't think of that. Think of nothing. Learn how to quiet your mind. Learn how to make your mind quiescent like a motionless lake. A motionless lake can attract our image, reflect the sun, the stars, the moon, trees, grass. A lake that is noisy cannot reflect anything.
So, when you learn to quiet your mind you reflect yourself, and yourself is always harmony, always bliss, always Satchitananda, always the absolute reality, always absolute oneness. That's your real Self. That's who you really are. It's all up to you. What do you do with your life everyday? How do you live your life? This doesn't mean that you have to sit home and meditate all day long. It means you can go about your business and work. You can not work. You can go to a movie. You can watch TV. You can do whatever you like, but never identify with the object! Never identify with what the body is doing. Let the body do whatever it came here to do, but you keep the mind and yourself on your heart, on the light, on consciousness. Quiet your mind any way you want, whatever method you use. Become the witness
of your thoughts. Use, Atma-Vichara, self-enquiry. Whatever method you have to use, do it, but do it all day long. That's the secret, not just when you come here, not just an hour a day, but all during the day.
So, how would you handle that? If you go to your work and they terminate you? Instead of worrying, you would ask the question to yourself, "To whom is this happening? Who's going through this experience? (long pause) I am." Hold onto the I with all your might. Follow the I to the source. Look at the I as a thread that seems to be connected from the source to what you're thinking about. All of your thoughts are attached to the I--thread. All of your fears, all of your frustrations, all of your desires, everything is attached to the I--thread, and as you hold onto it tight, as you follow it, follow it into the heart center, then it will just seem to disappear. The reason I say, "It will seem to disappear." is because it never existed to begin with.
(Robert laughs) So it appears to disappear, but once that happens you're free and you will not be disturbed by any mortal condition, and you will be happy.
When I say you'll be happy I am not referring to human happiness. I am referring to happy-happy, happy hour, really happy for no reason, again because your true nature is happiness, your true nature is bliss. When you get rid of the other stuff, your true nature shines forth effortlessly. That's why we call this the pathless path because there's really no path. There's only a quietness of the mind. Following the I to the source, then all of a sudden you become omnipresence, you become omniscience, you become omnipotence. Then you can say, "I Am That I Am," but there will be nobody left to say anything really. You will just bask in the sunshine of your love, of your happiness, of your bliss.
Someone else called and asked me to explain the difference between a seeker, a disciple and a devotee. I have talked about this before, but I will mention it again.
A seeker is a blessed person, who because of experiences in previous lives, has been fortunate enough to begin searching for truth. A seeker spends many years, perhaps many incarnations, seeking truth. The mistake they make, is they go from teacher to
teacher, from Hatha Yoga to Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga to Kundalini Yoga. They go from Christianity to Hinduism, from Hinduism to Buddhism. The searcher keeps going from one to the other.
The searcher has not yet practiced anything. They just listen at different meetings. They read book after book on all kinds of subjects. They become very intellectual as far as truth teachings are concerned, and are able to discuss anything under the sun. They can talk about everything. Yet, they have never had a spiritual experience.
This can be dangerous if they do not find a singularly efficient teacher who will explain to them what they are doing, because they can go on like that their entire lives, and to the next, remaining a seeker. The path becomes interesting. It is as if
a king has invited you to the kingdom to share it with him. He lives on 200 acres of beautiful land. You drive in the front gate on the way to the king's house, but you see beautiful flowers, and you become fascinated. You forget about the king and get into agriculture and start to plant new flowers.
Then you remember the king and continue to drive in. This time you see beautiful caves and rock formations and become involved with them, again forgetting the king. Years pass. You remember the king again, and once again go forward. This time you see dancing girls dancing in the flowers and you become fascinated with that. Again years pass. You never get to the king. If you had reached the king, he would have shared the kingdom. That is what a seeker does. A seeker becomes fascinated by different teachings and becomes absorbed in each, but never has a spiritual experience.
The disciple is a seeker who has been touched by a teaching. The disciple discovers Zen and loves it. However, instead of staying with one teacher, he goes from Zen teacher to Zen teacher. Not like the seeker who goes from one teacher to the other--the disciple is more settled and stays awhile before going to another Zen teacher. They go on like this from incarnation to incarnation.
A devotee is completely different. A devotee has found the path they were looking for and the teacher they want. They become the path. They become the teaching. They become the teacher. They take care of the particular path they are on. It becomes a reciprocal thing. A devotee realizes the teacher of their Zen path has given up everything to teach the path, so they take care of the teacher's needs and devote themselves to that path. What happens to that kind of devotee? Soon they merge with the teacher's consciousness--they become one. They become realized.
Any questions about anything?
Q: Is there a choice for a seeker to be a disciple, or a disciple a devotee?
R: No, not really. You are right. You will do what you came here to do. The only choice you have in life is not to identify with the body. When you do not identify with the body, you will gravitate to where you are supposed to be, and everything will happen. Ultimately, you are right, we have no choice.
Q: There is no 'me.'
R: Exactly. Those of us who have come here, have not come by accident or choice. We are here because that's where we are supposed to be, and I am here because it's where I am supposed to be. I never chose to be a teacher. I never chose to be anything. I am here and you are here. So what are we going to do about it? Why complain?
Q: If there is no choice, then you also can not choose whether or not to identify with the body.
R: That's the only freedom you have.
Q: Do you have that freedom?
R: You have that freedom.
Q: But that is out and out choice.
R: That is the only choice you have.
Q: I was under the impression that there was no choice whatever. Period!
R: There is no choice, period--except not to react to conditions, and not to identify with the body. If it were not for this, we would be automatons, but we are not. Be aware of what is in us, the reality; that allows this choice to not identify with the body or to react to conditions. Everything else is predetermined.
Q2: To the extent I don't believe that, then I have a me.
R: No you don't.
R: As long as you believe you have a me, you have a choice. In reality you don't have a me. But if you spoke from reality, the question would be unnecessary. There would be no need for the question.
Q: I don't understand.
R: As long as you believe you have a me, then you have a choice.....
Q: Choice as to whether I am a seeker or a disciple?
R: No. The choice is whether to identify with the body or not.
Q: That clearly I understand.
R: That is the only choice you have.
Q: I don't believe that.
R: You have the choice because you are a me. You believe you are a me. When you don't believe you are a me, and you are not a me, then nothing, that's it. Nobody to talk about a choice.
Q: The question is then, so far as I think I am a me, then I have a choice and things are not determined. That is, I feel as if I have a choice whether I go somewhere or become a devotee.
R: It appears that way, but you are speaking from the viewpoint of an ego.
Q: That is the me that is blocking understanding?
R: (Robert sighs--laughs) If you were not a me, there would be no one to ask the question. The question would not arise. As long as you are the me, then you think whether you have a choice or not. Just the thinking about it, shows you are a me. So this is addressed to 'me's.' (All laugh)
Q3: I think what is arising with Q and and possibly with Q2 and which bothered me for a while is that Ramesh (Balsekar) teaches that all you need to do (to be realized) is to believe you are not a me. The teachings will perform their work even though you still feel like a me. He says practice is unnecessary. There is no practice outside of listening to the teachings. He says you should believe you are Krishna and deny that you are Arjuna, even while still feel you are Arjuna.R: He has a point--to an extent. It is like a razor's edge. I don't like to say that, is that it gives new people license to do what they like, to become arrogant and belligerent, and to say "I am total awareness, it makes no difference what I do. I can kill animals, nothing matters." I have seen many beginners with those attitudes. You have to be careful.
That is why Ramana Maharshi was so wise. He taught two ways: One of Bhakta--self surrender, and one of Atma-Vichara (self-enquiry). They are both correct.
Q: If you have Tamistic tendencies, Ramesh says that they will manifest no matter what you do. There is no choice.
R: This is true, therefore the secret is not to identify with the body, but to identify with the Self. That will take care of everything.
To identify with the Self is sometimes not easy. Therefore you have to practice certain disciplines or meditations, or surrendering yourself to God. This will make you humble and will automatically lead to Atma-Vichara. Then everything will happen of its own accord. You have to be very careful, especially with Westerners, who believe I am consciousness or I am God, and realizes this is the ultimate truth about ourselves. Watch yourself, watch your actions, see what you are really about. Don't use truth to cover your weaknesses.
If you were a drug user and came to Satsang, and you understand reality, eventually you will stop using drugs. In the meantime do the best you can, physically, mentally and otherwise to stop the habit. It is preordained anyway, but do the best you can. If you follow the teachings, everything will take care of itself. What do you think of that?
Q: Could it lead to a neurosis? (All laugh) You try the best you can to do something, and it is not preordained to happen, so you are constantly frustrated.
R: The only neurosis you have is that you believe that you are the body. When you take your mind off the body, then you will know what to do to stop the drug habit.
Q: What if it is not preordained that you stop the drug habit?
R: Then you won't do it. However, if you realize your choice is not to identify with the body, that feeling alone will cause something positive to happen.
I hate using words like preordained because you may say to yourself, "It is preordained, I might as well enjoy it" and will continue to take drugs. You have to be careful what you say. It is preordained to the extent that you identify with the situation. As soon as you start to identify with the self, with total awareness, things begin to change. They have to.
Q2: That will happen when it happens. There is no you that can make it happen.
R: Exactly. Everything is predetermined. Is that clear enough?
Q2: How can 'you' get in the way if it doesn't exist? It can only appear to get in the way, but actually it isn't so, everything is going exactly the way it should.
R: Yes, but do not identify with that--identify with the Self. The you will not think about how slow things are, or how fast. If you work spontaneously, if you stay centered in the now, there will be no time to think about your habits and pure meditation takes place. They stop of there own accord.
Q2: No one stops them, it happens automatically?
R: Because you never really had them.
Q2: They appeared to be there.
R: The appearance is that you stopped them too. There is nothing to do and there is no one to watch.
Q2: There is watching.
R: Who watches?
Q2: No one. There is just watching only. Which is awareness.
R: Watching doesn't exist. Awareness doesn't exist. Those are just terms, concepts for the Ajnani to talk about.
Q2: Then we are reduced to silence because any term used will be shot down.
R: Yes.
Q2: Fair enough. It comes to the mind shutting up.
R: Ask yourself, "Who has to shut up?" Nobody. There is nobody home.
Q: In self-enquiry, do we ride the thought to it's duration?
R: There is just the watching at that time, and the observation of the I. Observe the I, go to the source in calmness and peace. When the I goes to the source, it disappears and then you are free. There is nobody left to do anything. You become pure intelligence. The realization comes that the I was never there to begin with. It doesn't come in words, it comes in your beingness. (Approximately five second long segment missing). The Self you always were, shines forth.
Don't get too technical. Simplicity and realization are synonymous. You don't need to read Advaita, get into all kinds of concepts and meditations, and things we have to do. Just calmly realize there is nothing to realize. (Laughter) Be free of the whole thing.
Q: I have noticed a difference in myself having been with you now about a month. When I first encountered Nisargadatta's teachings 2 years ago, I only felt emptiness inside. Now I definitely feel a sense of I-ness located in my heart area. It feels
both painful and blissful, but the emptiness is not there anymore. I think this is do to your emphasis on practice, concentrating on the I. Nisargadatta talks from the absolute point of view, there is no I to concentrate on, practice or to think about.
Q3: The people I saw at Ramesh's talks seem to be more in to conceptual understanding. That is, they believe they have attained, when in fact all they have is a conceptual understanding.
R: Who knows. I don't compare teachers. I don't even know what I am doing. I don't have a teaching. I'm just here. Nothing is planned. This is not even a teaching. It is nothingness, emptiness. Call it whatever you like.
Q: Can you share that with me?
R: With who?
Q: With me.
R: You don't exist. To me, there is no-one with whom to share. I see you as me. There is only one. It is like a mirror and its reflection. I identify with the mirror, but I also see the reflection. I also realize the reflection is the mirror. The mirror creates its reflections, its images.
Q: The mirror creates its mistaken conceptions and images?
R: They don't really exist.
Q: That is a strange thing for the mirror to do, doesn't it get tired of doing this?
R: The mirror is not really doing it. It appears to be doing it. Nothing is doing it. There is no doing going on. Nothing is done. When your mind is quiet, you find bliss.
Q4: I don't understand why Q feels I in his chest, when before he felt emptiness.
R: That happens to some people. Before you come to nothingness, you can feel it in your chest. We talk about nothingness, but are you experiencing nothingness? Talking about it and experiencing it are two different things.
Q: There are different levels of that also? He had the feeling that there was nothing there, but at some level the sense of I was still there, because the I-sense is recurring.
R: To some people there appears to be levels.
Q: That is another illusion. They certainly appear as if they are there.
R: That is why I say the sky is blue is an illusion. In reality, there is no sky and there is no blue. There is just space. We think the sky is blue. The same is true with mistaking a rope for a snake or a snake for a rope. Upon investigation we find the suspected snake is a rope. Once we find it is a rope, we will never be tricked again.
Once you find your reality, you can never be fooled again. We see things, we see images--our senses tell us there are images everywhere, but upon investigation, you will find there are no images at all. They don't exist. There is only space. The images are superimposed on space. The images do not exist of their own accord. If the Self did not exist, there would be no images.
Q: So the Self is producing the images?
R: Apparently.
Q: Apparently or actually?
R: Apparently. The self really does not produce anything. It appears to. The Self is contained in itself. The Self is self-contained. It does absolutely nothing. But as long as we are an image, or we believe we are the body, the Self appears to project images. When you realize you are not the body, that all stops.
Q: That is the Maya?
R: That is Maya, that is Leela.
Q: Too much Leela. (Laughter)
R: Many people enjoy the play, because they wish to continue. They continue to identify with their conditions, situations, bank accounts, wives or husbands. As long as you are attached to anything, you cannot find freedom.
I am not saying you shouldn't have anything. Possess all you want, but don't be possessed by your possessions.
Q: I was talking to a woman who came to hear you once. She said "Robert is too advanced for me, I just want a more comfortable life."
R: That is the state of most people. That is why the world is in the precarious condition it is in. Everybody is involved in their own game, so to speak.
Q: It would be all right if no one interfered with my game, but it is in conflict with everybody else's game.
R: Exactly. That is the irony of it.
Q: Are there some people who can have their cake and eat it too?
R: You long as you call it cake, it is like there is something here for you. What is the cake? When you realize the truth, it is virtually impossible to enjoy the world. The world keeps changing, changing, changing.... (interruption) Ramana Maharshi said that the only problem you have, is that you believe that you were born.
Q: That was your leading question today, "What were we before we were born?"
R: Prior to consciousness.
Q: Which occurs at the time we are born, doesn't it? Consciousness?
R: Yes, consciousness takes place at the time of birth. But prior to conscious there is nothing--space.
Q2: Not even the potential for consciousness.
R: Absolute zero.
Q: But there is the concept of before.
R: As long as there is some thing, it is not that. There is no thing whatsoever. It is beyond words and thoughts.
Q: But there is something.
R: What is it? What? What was the something?
Q: I am asking you.
R: It is a mystery. Nobody knows.
Q: We don't know what, but there was something.
R: There is nothing. Nothing is beyond the senses. It sounds stupid. When your mind is quiet and peaceful, and you sit in the silence, then you become that you are referring to. It is none other than yourself.
Don't try to explain the Self, once you try to explain it, it is not it. Just be your self, and you will be safe. Don't be this and don't be that. Be yourself. Don't be a woman, don't be a man. Just be yourself.
Q: The 'Self' then is just a word that is pointing at something wordless, indescribable and not possiblely explained.
R: Yes
Q: It indicates like a finger pointing.
R: Like an arrow.
(long silence)
R: As we sat in silence, what thoughts came into mind? Whatever thoughts there were, good or bad, they have got to go. Even if you were thinking, what a wonderful Satsang, that has got to go. All thoughts must go. Your wonderful Satsang will not bring you realization. Emptiness will. Nirvana.
(long silence)
R: Many times I tell newcomers in the meeting, "Please do not believe anything I say." Why should you? Experiment on yourself. See what happens. Don't accept what I say blindly. Find out for yourself.
Do not let a day go by when you do not practice something on yourself--by questioning, by being the witness, by using "Who am I?" with the breath. Ask "Who am I?" with the inhalation. Say "I am Brahman" between breaths, and "I am not the body" with the exhalation. If you practice these things, it should keep you busy from thinking. That is the only purpose. To make you one pointed, so you can stop thinking so much.
Many people tell me that "The direct path is very hard for me because I can't stop thinking, I'm always thinking about something, thoughts just come to me, and even when I ask to whom do they come, I can't stop them." So I give them that mantra, and then they can substitute it for awhile. As they substitute it they become stronger and the mind becomes weaker. They become stronger and the mind becomes weaker until the mind stops thinking.
Of course, the other way is total surrender to God or to yourself. Even when I say total surrender to God, some people still believe that you have to surrender to some kind of outside deity, but there is no outside deity. Total surrender to God means to surrender to yourself, to give up all your desires, all your dreams, all your wants, all your questions and just say, "Thy will be done." That's it, and let yourself or God take care of everything. Have no anxious thought about anything. If you really totally surrendered to God you will be o.k. You'll be taken care of. Whatever method you use it will only lead you upward.
Q: Sometimes I've found that the mind is quiet. Other times there's like a barrage of thoughts. It's like skeet shooting and it's like a machine gunning the thoughts that go by.
R: Yes.
Q: Then sometimes I find when I have it quiet, all of a sudden there's a movement up above, not words, but it's like a big fish under the ocean.
R: First, observe it and don't act, and then ask "To whom does it come?" So do both, observe and ask the question.
Q: It's actually a fun game.
R: Yes, it is. (Long silence)
Remember to love yourself, to worship yourself, to pray to yourself, to find joy in yourself, because God dwells in you as you. Peace. Thank you for coming, and I love you all. Have a good life.
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